Jan. 4, 2023

Simon Macknade - Macknade Butchers


This episode we chat with a seasoned chef and butcher talking about the importance of local British meat, secondary cuts which can offer fantastic flavours but at a fraction of the cost compared to primal cuts. As ever we continue with BBQ Bingo and BBQ Fails.

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Transcript

Owen - Host:

Today's episode is brought to you by aos kitchens, the South's leading outdoor kitchen design and installation specialists Welcome to another episode of the meat & Greet BBQ podcast today we're talking to Simon who is a butcher for Mac need farm shot down in Kent. We're going to be talking about all things meat, secondary cuts, economical cuts, as well as kind of Simon's career in cheffing and his love for barbecue in general. So without much further ado, here's Simon. Welcome Simon to the meat & Greet BBQ podcast. It's absolutely fantastic to have you on for everyone that doesn't know who you are. Please introduce yourself to our to our listeners.

Simon Macknade:

Yeah, hello. So yeah, my name is Simon. Currently a butcher, been a butcher now for getting about seven years. Tom goes too fast. I'm losing track. I run a lovely craft butchery in furbishing. Ken had been running the butchery now for about five years, specialize in all whole carcass butchery. So that means to a lot of us that we don't buy anything in the box. It comes in as a whole animal, we break it down to customer requirements or whatever we want that broken down to So whole chickens or pigs or beef or lamb. You name it. That's where we do it. Zero importation. All the meat is from directly from farms to abattoir to us. So we've got 100 traceability on absolutely everything that we're trying to do. So that's kind of the USP where I'm at right now. backgrounds, I chef for best part of that 20 years in the industry starting off in high end fine dining in Kent, and then moving my way up into London. I was fortunate enough to do some stashes with Ramsey. I worked for Michelle Rouen as a sous chef for a little while. I've been on the square. So more luck of the draw and anything else. Yeah, I worked very hard. My younger age. And I was lucky to fold up my feet and sort of land some really, really good jobs. Finished off the shipping career back in Kent, opening restaurants in Tunbridge Wells. So we had a restaurant was formed, it was called the 26th. And then we later on opened a restaurant called the beacon which are two quite well relatively famous restaurants within Kent. And then to be honest, I sort of keep them relatively short on it, I didn't lose passion for the trade, I lost passion for the hours, I think is probably the truth. I would never lose passion for cooking, cooking is that that's what I do. That's not just my wasn't just my job is my hobby. But I've got three young girls and a wife. And trying to work at six in the morning till two in the morning was not great. That's the polite way of putting it. In a nutshell, that's, that's that's my kind of career path. There's a hell of a lot more to it, but we'll need a four hour meeting for that one. But yeah, that's me.

Owen - Host:

Oh, perfect. Yeah, it's great to have you on. So I mean, I think what's what I was really interested, obviously, we met at sizzle fests not so long ago. And we started having a conversation around obviously butchery and I think one of the things that was quite excited to talk to you about today was where you've said you literally have whole carcass. I mean, nothing's boxed it's all customer orders. You know, I think we spoken about it a lot on the podcast you know, you have your traditional your brisket, your Boston bucks, you know, the traditional kind of low and slow cuts and things like that, but I'm actually quite interested to, to hear from you a with your cheffing career, but obviously your expertise as a butcher, what are the what are those other cuts? What those alternatives perhaps the lesser known or the the cheaper alternatives that can still be fantastic to cook on the barbecue? Still give the same great flavors as all, you know, all of these traditional cuts that we would, you know, we would normally go for?

Unknown:

Yeah, you know, as a brilliant question. I'm so pleased you asked that question. Because that's something I'm really trying to push in, in my poetry right now is coming away from I'm going to use the terminology primal cuts. I know it's the wrong terminology because primers or rivets are sort of SolarWinds ribeyes but it's to me a primal cut would be your kind of your briskets your Boston bucks that kind of thing, which everybody knows every every barbecue book in the world. It's got a brisket recipe a short rib recipe. Great No Yes, like it's like pretty flavors, you know? But let's start with one thing. So first of all, brisket I find exceptionally hard to cook and I think every barbecue enthusiasts will probably back me up on that one. To get a perfect brisket is yeah, very hard. So actually, we started looking, I like to say other cuts in the butchery so let's take the shoulder of beef. So in the trade four quarter of beef, so the fourth quarter contains 1001 Amazing cuts so we have a quick run through so starting off what's really in fashion at the moment is a great one. So we'll start with the shin so My boys in the butchery will kill me for saying this because they take the mick out of me. I've got proper old school team that are going to the Academy for this one. So Thor's hammer is massive on social media right now and I've seen it everywhere. Oh, not just everywhere. So you've got some of the biggest players in the in the meat industry in the market. So long Croft and old are actually selling boxed up Thor's hammers ready to go. It's, it's mind blowing. But it's a great cut. So you know, traditionally shouldn't be let's go back old English style section of beef braised diced red wines, you that kind of that kind of thing, you know, carrots, onions, all of that nice stew, but it's now becoming that real sort of fashionable on a barbecue low and slow. A friend of mine did one the other day, which blew me away actually. He did it with the bracelet on on his ceramic barbecue, and then smoked it heavily over Guinness and then pulled it straight into the Guinness and then made it into a pie on the barbecue. Of course. You don't really got to look at social media go wow, that's that's, that's, that's insane. That's next level barbecue to me. So there's one cut that I think uh, well, I'd like to say it was underrated. But four months five months ago. Yeah, it was quite underrated. But it's come quite fashionable. Now. We can sell well, we don't actually have that many committee buy a whole carcass. But I could probably sell three or four or five or six, maybe even a week. What happened with those?

Owen - Host:

Would you say would you have seen six months ago that you would have sold one of those a week?

Unknown:

Yeah, I don't even trying to sell shit on the bone six months ago is would have been near and dire and impossible. You know, people want to convenience bone out Shin ready to go. But since I've watched social media, and it's Thor's hammer, kind of hitting the market hard. Every second post on Instagram in a moment, it's like a Thor's hammer pitch. Wow, what's going on?

Owen - Host:

Do you find this? There's a trend in terms of popularity as well. Kind of links to cost? Yeah. Supply and demand, I assume? Yeah. What do you know what?

Unknown:

I don't want to divulge the original question too far. But cost is a great one. And maybe it's something that we can bring up a little bit later on. But of course, you know, we're living in a current climate where economical economics is hitting hard, isn't it? And we're seeing that across the aisle with my wife, we own two businesses. And we're seeing that impact in that when it comes to fit the fiscal cost of everything from rates. So you name it to purchasing I've got a coffee shop, just just to purchasing coffees and syrups. That goes back into the butchery related Yeah, of course it does. And that's where the secondary cuts are at receiving huge for us, you know, because not only can we give something that's absolutely quality, but we can also see give something that's more economic, and less risky than a brisket, I think is probably, again for me. So you still go back to our original question with my favorite moment is actually chuck chuck steak. But rather than, I don't know, laboratories, traditionally, would you roll the whole thing. So you would take the chuck off the bone fragment sake, and you've got almost like a double muscle, so you've got a muscle that sits on top, then you've got to see and then you've got like the round muscle, which is in fact, the continuation from the ribeye that sits on there. So within virtually again, maximizing what we can get from one cup. So we'll take that same off the top, clean that seam up really nicely, so any of the sinews will come off. And that will go into Denver steaks, which we'll talk about in a moment, but bloody brilliant steaks, but then the chuck so we take the fat so the basic, the fat that sits on top over that over the blade and reduce fill it. We take that we rolled it back on over the chuck guy. So you've got like a in traditionally, I suppose you'd know it as a chuck roast. But for me, well, the flavor on that you put that on a barbecue 150 degrees C, give it three, four, maybe five hours, just real low and slow, say levels like wouldn't it be nice to think again, what the controversial world of a barbecue world is real No, but I like so high temperature and he prefers cooking it that little white whiskey renders the fat down perfectly, still doesn't dry out because it's not fat and the muscle for it not to dry out. But when you get that and you pull that into say like tacos or something like that, wow, the flavor of that is just it's just mind blowing. And again, I have a very good friend I'm not going to name drop but a very good friend, very well known chili company. In the south,

Owen - Host:

you'll find you'll find dandruff by the way.

Unknown:

Harringtons who's just happened to be

Owen - Host:

characters?

Unknown:

Which people Chuck roll from us last week. I didn't base I didn't have any brisket that I thought was good enough to be barbecue basically, we'll go through I think I explained that later. But I said, Well, why don't you Why don't you look at this. This is this has to be my favorite cut. And they actually you text me a couple of days ago. Just like wow, I'm just blown away the flavor the ease of the cooking. This thing is incredible. So Chuck roll is my number one go to for lone slow issue. Barbecued duck. Yeah, Chuck broke brilliant. But then that sort of carries on doesn't it? So I'm visualizing it as the shoulder of beef. So you've kind of you've got the Chuck's thing here. And then if you don't know how much of it's like you've got a blade bone that sits on top. So, on top of the blade where you've got that T bone section of the blade, you've got then two muscles that sit at the side. So one muscle sits one side is what we know, old school traders feather blade. And then, let's be honest, the revolution how many years which is gonna be a few years now what, five, six, maybe even 10 years revolution of the flat iron steak. That's just skyrocketed. And I think first of all, more economical is a secondary cut. It's a feather blade. It's a potentially was an old school student cup. And then you've got the likes of the fat on restaurants opening up London, London bound, putting this massive name onto this steak. And that's incredible. What a steak. It's got the flavor of a ribeye. It's got amazing texture, and it's about three quarters of the price of a primal cup. That's incredible. So from

Owen - Host:

a text from from a texture point of view, then so what would that be similar to what other steak would that be similar to?

Unknown:

Oh, I'm gonna go again, it's subjective opinion, isn't it, but I'm gonna go I'm gonna go more sirloin probably rump more rump. It's not, it's never going to be as tender as let's be honest. It's it's a working muscle isn't it is the muscle it sits on, it's not going to have that have that tenderness to it. But if it's cooked correctly, and again, this is subject to opinion but in my eyes, and I'm not even I'm gonna get killed by most chefs with this. I'm not even gonna say rare, you know, a medium rare to medium, medium, probably more medium, because it just allows you to cook up some of that more muscular areas in it. But the key for it as long as it's rested. Yeah, it's and it's left on the side. And for so many people make this huge mistake of put the stake in a pan on a barbecue. Yeah, cook it really nice and hot, they get it cooked absolutely perfect. Right there, take it out, they recommend plate and they try and eat it. And they're like, Oh, this is really tough. And it's relaxed, isn't it time to sit, you know, it needs to relax. And, and this goes really, really key important for any of the secondary stakes. So the Denver steaks, the flat iron steaks, the key to making them tender is relaxing. And just make sure that they sit don't cover it in for we've already cooked it perfectly. So you'd only cook it in further, slowly rather let it rest. And then you'll have a tendency to have a rump or sirloin in my eyes. That's and again, it's also with it, I'm going to be a little bit arrogant, I suppose. But it's the skin of the butcher. If that if that secondary cut isn't cleaned up properly. So if if the blood of that Sydney that's on the bottom is left on that flat, I'd say well that's in you're never going to cook. And if you imagine when you put it in the barbecue, it's going to contract that sin, you're just going to put it even tighter. So a lot of it is in the skin of the butchery it's hard to get making sure that the butchers understand how that should be cleaned out how it should be prepared properly. And I can go really in depth on it. It's not only the skill of the butchery, but it's also the skill of understanding the animal making sure that that is hung long enough. It's there's so many elements that goes into getting these cups. Correct. And it's not just the cooking.

Owen - Host:

Yeah, no, absolutely. And again, this is exactly what we wanted you to come on just to kind of really go you know, a bit more into depth. But also, let's, let's say for me, you know, I'm not, I'm not a complete newbie into into, you know, barbecue, or go and eat, you know, quite often go to my local butcher, but equally I'm by no means an expert. So let's say for me to get to if I'm going in and you're talking about cleaning, you know, cleaning up the secondary cuts properly, visually for me as the customer, what should I be looking for? To see that actually, it's been cleaned up properly? And I am not gonna I'm not gonna get

Unknown:

fobbed off. Yeah, exactly. No, I'm not gonna beat around the bush because it's really important that for me that my customers have the confidence to understand the confidence to go into butchers to actually ask because we're never going to get the trade going any further because we haven't got the confidence to come and see us. So I don't really spend it. It's I will say with a flat iron. It's it's what we know the trade was, I know the trades as the sinew, so the connective tissues. So if it's got like a really big line of like shiny looking material on it, then that's not going to cook down. If it's fat, then that's different story that's going to cook. Did you notice that's such a difficult question to ask answer, because I can visualize it. I can see it in front of me.

Owen - Host:

So great. So yeah, so for me, I call it like the silver skin. It's kind of like thicker skin.

Unknown:

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm not gonna use the word crystal because that crystal would be it's counterproductive in terms of what the cut is. So if you've got a piece of Shin Well, it's going to be full of what looks like bristle because that's the nature of that cut. But you're not going to cook Shin as a steak. So you're gonna so it's very much on that on those on those cuts if like sirloin go on to the primal cuts is a great one. If you look at the back of the sirloin, there's a great big line of silver skin that kind of sits on that top. Now if you go into again butchers, we're going to watch his might kill me because I like to make sure that was Oliver As you before that goes on the counter, we take that skin out. So you remove the part of the fact that goes in the back, you remove that silver skin. So when you cook it on a barbecue, all of its going to cook, you haven't got that bit of silver skin sitting that it's going to be tough and nasty. Yeah, but it's a difficult one in the trade because that comes at a cost element. Because we're taking that out, obviously, we're paying as a butcher, we're paying for the whole thing. Yeah, in my eyes to get repeat customers. And to get customer confidence, we're like, I want the customer to have the best product that we can physically deliver and that it has to be minimized. It's a finished product that the customer can take home and enjoy and they haven't got to worry about working to get that perfect product. That's the way I see it in our butchery. We don't on the flip side of it, we do get customers that want the experience of actually doing the butchery home. So they can always ask and we'll let them do of course you know they can do that. So yeah, it's a really it's a hard question to answer because every every steaks gonna have a slightly different things to look out for. But predominantly, that still was skin on the steak that you know, you want to make sure it's cleaned up, especially on the secondary cuts such as your flat irons, and Denver steaks, Denver, especially if you think that sits on top of your chuck your Chuck's exceptionally, a tough muscle so that Denver's got isn't cleaned up properly, then it will be it will run the risk of being a very tough cup, we take you know, we take a good half hour to ensure that every little bit on the Denver is clean. So when you get it, it's just just this perfect steak that you can take on the cook straightaway. So I don't know it's kind of a roundabout answer really. But

Owen - Host:

just it sounds like a labor of love the way that you do it.

Unknown:

I think well, I don't think it is. We wouldn't do the trade if we didn't love the trade. You know, it's bloody hard graft, like lot of trades are you think is the physical element what the customer doesn't necessarily see the physical element of job is hard, you know, I've damaged myself more and more times. Now I'd like to like to imagine but you think we get paid for that we come in a body of people around 400 kilos, it's got to come in the fridge that's then got to come out of the fridge and come onto the block. And it's you know, these things people don't see a pig can be anything up to sort of 80 Odd kilos. And that's gonna come in again, you know, so there's a lot of physical lifting, carrying. And then obviously then you've got the tide element. You're working with knives. Let's be honest in the butcher's knives, most butcher knives are relatively sharp. Oh, going joking out right. But you know, people don't necessarily see that and yes, but so it's a labor of love. It has to be because if it wasn't if you didn't love it, I don't think you would. I don't think you would do it is that element, but I absolutely hope hopefully you can tell you know, I actually love the train. I wouldn't I wouldn't solve it for the world right now to be honest with it. It's it's dangerous that you know, you've got this butcher counter in front of you, and you've got barbecues at home. Anyway. That's it don't go Jacob might say but always stayed with me for this one as well. My wife. I have to text my wife to get money to put on the card because she knows when you're in a car. That's it. I'm coming home with you. Yeah, well

Owen - Host:

to be to be honest with you somewhere I'm exactly the same. So I'll go I'll nip into the butchers and I think I need some chicken breasts for tonight or whatever it might be. Yeah, exactly. I'll go in there to spend a fiver and I'll go out spending 50 quid

Unknown:

that's my shoe. So I don't know if you've seen my social media but if you look into if you look in my fridge when you've got three or four bodies of beef hanging up, and you walk in or go Oh, right. What do I want for dinner?

Owen - Host:

Just take the whole site just take a whole side of beef. Hi, we've just started you

Unknown:

know why it's been so tempting. It's so tempting. What do we do? I don't know. I'll begin I'll be wrong so I don't know the kind of the name of the state and I'm sure people won't be put so I will hopefully hopefully I'm out but we do we did one it was more of a joke over the summer where you take the what we know is a train the top bit so on top it is your leg of beef basically. So if you I don't know if you can imagine the leg of beef so he's kind of imagined legged lamb and make it about 20 times the size. So if you imagine on the on the top of the lamb so where the HMM says we've got the flat here so what we do with the beef and that was we take this one big steak across the whole slice so this thing is literally like like this about this I've never been so tempted to shut down the fire pit and again, I know we have that flexibility to have some fun as well cut things like that and just whack that in account I think worked out about 25 kilos steak and I think wow so yeah, as you can tell Yeah, it's 100% labor of love what we do is just and again I'm like I'm lucky you know I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sit him and go Yeah, I am lucky I've fallen on my feet with a where I am the the people I work with being able to physically able to have this affiliation with the farmers that I'm working with a context it's there is a hell of a lot of luck, sort of fallen into that. Not everyone has the capabilities not I'm not saying capabilities are best Whatever the physical capabilities or the space or time to actually be able to do what we do so, yeah, there was there was massive element of luck.

Owen - Host:

Actually the contact with the farmers and I'd love to just touch upon that and go back to the kind of Secretary cuts in a minute. But so in some of the other episodes, one that's not yet to be aired. I recorded earlier this week, although by the time this comes out, it'll be weeks ago. With Jack from Jack's meat shack. We interviewed Genevieve Taylor, earlier just earlier in the summer. And when we did a summer special, and we were just talking about the quality of British beef, and we're actually, you know, we were comparing it to US corn, corn fed beef. And you know, our grass fed beef is obviously a lot leaner, but it's a better flavor. So I'm interested from your point of view, when you're saying 100% traceability, you know, you've got local contacts with local farmers, how important that actually is to the cost to the customer, and the quality of the beef that you could serve? I can

Unknown:

Well, there's several different areas to that one question. So let's sort of take each area in its turn. So let's do this to sort of the quality. Let's just do let's do first of all, sort of UK V. USDA for argument's sake for America. UK beef. Yeah, it's been challenging. Well, I work with 100, pasture fed certified parts of life. I've worked directly with parts of life as well. So I represent as a butcher, once a month meetings with with all these guys, so I'm a massive advocate, as you know, with parts of life. So it's been very, very challenging. You put a pasture for life, brisket, let's use that as an example against a USDA. Well, let's not use USDA just just use an American grain fed brisket. The intermuscular marbling of the American brisket, you're never going to beat that. That is it's incredible and for, for your barbecue enthusiasts is going to cook. Incredible, it's going to stay moist, it's going to it's going to tick every all of those boxes that you want to take for a brisket. Though, I kind of sit on the other side of that fence that I want to support the part of life scheme. I want to spoke pasture fed beef. For several reasons. First of all, actually, in the meeting reason, I actually do believe it tastes better. I think it's got more earthiness, more natural flavors to it. As my personal perspective to it, I think you get the beef taste that beef, you don't need to muck around with it too much. Again, my social media, I try and not do too much heavy, dry rubs or salted or anything because in my eyes, the quality of the posture of beef shouts through and you don't need necessarily need that to go on top of that. The other one, which I won't go too in depth because it goes on for years on it. But environmental impact is absolutely huge. Right now. We're all seeing again, I'm sitting here in Kent looking out my window. It's currently 20 degrees still outside. We're nearly November in Vail getting my high horse too much. If that doesn't show there's something wrong with our current climate then then what is we all know what's been going on in the in the industry with beef and the reputation of beef has got predominantly throughout the industry of being this nasty meat, methane forming, planet destroying animal. So you know, I think there needs to be that change change towards that pasture system. Where, you know, it's a lot less intensive grazing, you know, the herds are a lot smaller. That I think definitely, again, for me, that's another massive influence is going for going for that way. So you know, I mean, it's been like go back to sort of the quality has been a battle. You know, when we first started with pasture fed, I was getting some bodies coming through the To be honest, I don't really want to be too nasty, but they were only as good for dog food. Newer bodies come through that in a treatment was coverage. So that's the fat cover. We have they come out looking like venison, like just no fat on him. And if you try and put a full rib of beef up with no fat on it against a grain finished or grain fed, and as well as a part, isn't it? So we've been working super hard with the farmers for the farmers to try and understand as a butcher and the end user. What are we trying to look for, you know, how do we get the pasture systems to better finish their animals good enough to get the right amount of fat cover on it with the right kind of intramuscular marbling and it goes so in depth you know I'm having some really interesting conversations at the moment with researchers are looking at traditional breeds. How much is that an impact and actually us using our own heritage traditional breeds against crossbred animals is actually making finished products in the pasture system much, much better. And I'll give an example of that I had some belted Galloway come in pretty bad back in the summer. It was an older animal. So again for the listeners on here, so an average, an average cow in the UK will go to slaughter, noncommercial, let's put it that way probably 2728 29 months commercial community anything as short as 18 months to go into slaughter anything after anything after 30 months, in a trade it goes what we know is O TM. So over 30 months now, some of us are old enough to remember PSC when that kind of hit the big scare in that hit huge and remember t bones disappearing off the shelves and all of that. Well, what happened when BMC got it, they anything over 30 months old, they have to test for BSC. So what that means that they have to take the backbone out, test the spinal cord. So most mammals will try and keep their beef now under 30 months because when you when you take the backbone out of an ATM animal is a skill of sorting and obviously to get it neat and tidy. But some of the some of the jobs I've seen have been absolutely horrendous, you know, you're cutting into primal cuts, if they get it wrong, you know, it's just not great. But that's kind of divulging off. So this is going to be a bit background on where we're at. But this belted Galloway anyway, was not only an ATM, so over 30 Mark, there was a nine year old pasture raised, belted Galloway, not just pasture raised as well. It was raised on rare pasture. So what we'd like what we know it's concept conservation grazing. So the animal wasn't isn't being necessarily bred for the meat trade. It's being bred as a conservation animal, it turns up the ground. Euphoria comes through the ground. And it's that biodiversity of the breeding program. Anyway, we were fortunate to get our hands on this nine year old belty. And oh my god, if you again, just out mindset, if you get to go on Instagram scroll through about DACA beginning of summer, there's a couple pictures I put up of the top side. And it's way better than any Waygu that I've ever seen in the UK, it's probably got more marbling than any sort of a one like Waygu this thing was incredible. And that's 100 pasture. So go back to the original kind of the breeding on it. What we what I'm kind of looking at is actually my against opinion, but my opinion is that the British native breeds that haven't been cross bred, finished much better on grass than they will on grain. So whether that be a purebred, Angus, whether that will be a pure Sussex, whether that be a pure belty. And by looking at that philosophy working with me and working with the farmers that we're working with, we've got these pure breeds, we're now at the stage where I firmly believe the quality that's coming through is fantastic. Now controversially on that, of course, a lot of these breeds, they won't have a lot of that intermuscular marbling the belt, it does, because that's the nature of that animal is like Waygu, isn't it? Let's be honest, Waygu for all the fallacies of people we know is fed with this and done with this, the breed naturally has a lot of fat is muscle. That's the breed. Yes, you know, there's ways of enhancing on that grain is always going to enhance on that, but that's the breed. And that's the same for bilities. Aberdeen Angus doesn't necessarily have all that much. But it does a really good outer covering of fat. So it's, it's the skill again, that's kind of the butchery so when the animal comes in looking at the animal, right? How long does he need to age for? What's the best parts of age? And what parts do we need to use quick. So that kind of goes into links between on the past year as well. So every animal that comes to the front pasture is gonna be slightly different, you know, you haven't got that controllability that you've got on a grain finished or grain fed animal. Again, trying without getting too scientific on it. A grain fed animal, we will definitely be weighed in before slaughter, so they'll get a certain weight, and then it'll be taken to slaughter. Whereas pasture the farmers out there with his hands on the back of the animal going right? How much fat is it got? It's yes, they weigh it, but it's mostly it's intuition sense. Yeah, understanding it, looking at the confirmation when the animals live on the field, how hunched up and how long the legs are all of those kinds of things, then it's down to the skill of the butcher to understand about the aging of it. So if an animal comes in, and it hasn't got a lot of coverage on it, so out of out of that and was never going to action, it's going to hang for a couple of weeks and it almost like to go moldy before it will go. Ah so it's it's really kind of using our own interpretation to go that animal are going to leave that animal for six weeks, and then it'll be absolutely at its premium to eat. Or actually that animal needs to be cut relatively quick. And that's the beauty of having a butcher Isn't it because we can talk to each one of our customers and go actually I recommend this or the brutal honesty I don't recommend this and this goes back to the pastor I suppose is actually you know, again, my boss is known quite happy to say this because you know we work very close together but if the brisket compensation comes up in the customer specifically comes in for brisket for their barbecue. And the pastor of their brisket that I've got isn't in my eyes good enough to cook low and slow and we haven't Dessay got an order unless you have like a chart, then I will say to that why don't you try one of these other companies recommend another company and say, Look, try them, try the USDA, or try the green finished, because that will actually give you a better product. Because I think I firmly believe in open honesty, integrity, that's, you know, that's really what it's about. Because I know that customer will still come back.

Owen - Host:

I was just about to say, yeah, that's, that's quite important, isn't it that a, you build a relationship with your customer. And like I said, if you, I suppose your whole reputation is on the quality of your butchery and quality of the meat that you serve and the advice that you give. So it's something is better to be open and honest, and actually say, Well, I wouldn't recommend this, or I do recommend this or you should, I definitely wouldn't do this. But let me tell you to do this instead.

Unknown:

Yeah, 100%. I don't, I wouldn't want to run the butcher in any other way. I don't see the point in trying to pull the wool over a customer's eyes just to get sale, you get that immediate sale, but that customer is probably not going to come back. And he's probably going to tell another 10 Customers don't go there to meet me. There was awful. So yeah, what's the point? I'd rather lose that initial sale by being honest. For them to come back. Well, thank you for that recommendation. But we've come back, you know, so it's got to be that way. It's got to be that way in my eyes. Meet varies, isn't it? You know, it's not always the same. So let's just if he's not right, then do something else we can always do. You can always do something that that brisket that wasn't right, necessarily for low and slow barbecue. What might be ideal for a pot roast for someone else who comes in. So there's always something you can do. And so yeah, that's just unreasonable. So pasture, but pasture fed is where is where I'm at, you know, certainly where I'm at. And, as you can see, again, but my social massive advocate of it, and again, it goes, flavor for me, primarily environmental impact. And I'll touch delicately on the health side of it, because there's still more research going into it. But you know, we had proven a few months ago, the mega three, Omega three levels within pasture. And we can actually now sell pasture pure pasture fed beef, we can sell as a source of Omega three, which is absolutely incredible, absolute incredible. bazinga when we had that meeting, so not only is it ethically friendly, not only is it tasty, I can also sell it if it's good for you. It's brilliant. She had that, you know, scientifically proven, it's taken I think it was six years six year project to get to that, that sort of sign off to say yes, you can change X amount of Omega three. And there's, as you can imagine, as a multi develop projects going along with with pasture as well at the moment. So of course, yeah, absolutely advocate back to the American grain fed. Yeah. And your grain fed. It's, it's got a unique flavor to it, isn't it? But I think the older I get, I suppose. And the more I'm eating the grass fed, the less I'm enjoying grain fed. I sometimes you can leave you almost let that kind of like fatty residue, if that makes sense. Whereas the grass will say I'm gonna say grass fed pasture fed a lot more clean, and a clean finish. But it's subjective, isn't it? To be honest, you know, I'm not here to preach. people's taste in everybody's face is slightly different. And it'd be like saying different things I can I can only bring

Owen - Host:

on budgets are different as well, because again, I've gone on to buy certain going on to try and find some certain types of USDA prime and you're talking hundreds of pounds, hundreds of 100 pounds for a piece of brisket. You know, and

Unknown:

I think currently, would you would you add that bit of sizzle when we did that were had the bone in brisket against the USDA brisket right back in the beginning. On the demo stage.

Owen - Host:

No, I think I missed that

Unknown:

was really interesting. So at the very beginning was I think it was the first the first one and then it was flown in brisket which was local and I think it might quote be a product could be wrong, but I'm sure he said to me was a long horn or short horn brisket on the bone. And the next step next step was a pack of USDA brisket. USDA brisket was that that big. The bone in brisket was like this. First of all, we know there was like this world of difference, right? And even the guy ain't again, he's gonna kill me for getting this wrong. But it got flown across in America who cooks hundreds briskets a week, looked his bone in brisket was like wow. But yeah, and then I was standing with one of the one of the guys that come down in the butchery trade guy called Dave. He's very high up in the in the Booker's group. He's been a butcher for four more years, and you're probably like me to mention. He's exceptionally well respected in the industry. And he was saying, even at Costco, I think he was saying they're about 18 quid a kilo at cost. And that's before you put your margins on for retail. It's ludicrous. Risky cost to me at the moment is round about 10 at 1090 at costs so still

Owen - Host:

it's nearly double then it isn't it's it's it's big this this this no small it's not small numbers.

Unknown:

No. And that's it. And again, I'm sure we're going to come on to it like we said earlier but you know the files When you're when you're paying that money for, say USDA, and you fail, oh God, like, not only if you've got embarrassment of having just failed, but you've also known you've just thrown a lot of money away without fail. And let's be honest in the current climate we're sitting in. I don't think a lot of people can really justify that right now. I know. I certainly can't, I don't mind if I Oh, because you you've got to fail to learn. But I'd rather fail or something a little bit cheaper than

Owen - Host:

brisket. Yeah, absolutely. Just Just out of interest, then, obviously, over over the last few years for you, you know, with customers coming in? Are you seeing more people coming in and asking? I don't necessarily just mean low and slow cuts, but just asking for cuts to go be cooked outside outdoors on grills? Are you finding there's an upward trend in that?

Unknown:

Oh, my gosh, I'm massively massively. Now I don't know. Whether it's a biased view because of the microclimate that I work in. Just kind of put it in a roundabout scheme. I work in a huge farm shop. Yes, Ken's like foodie, heaven 6000 square foot of just incredible produce a daily that's got probably more cheese and Harrods. So come check us out. We got that later. But, but because of that, you know, we get a lot of people coming in that do a lot of barbecuing. I've tried a lot of high end barbecue. I can't think of the terminology to use on that. So yeah, I see a very mixed view on it. But there has been a massive change. Yeah, massively I think I would say percentage of the customers over the weekend you probably at least 30 40% of the customers every weekend and coming in for barbecue and that's 300 days a year. I think the trend the biggest trend has changed that for a lot of people now it's not just this all the wet the sun's out Somerset that's barbecue lobby, it's become now a hobby, a passion. Let's do this. Every weekend, most nights. Let's experiment. Get asked the questions How can I cook my turkey or my barbecue? That's massively common nowadays. So yeah, I think the trend is huge. And again, the way I set my butchery window up very much kind of hopefully reflects that trade as well. So you've always got those options that throughout the year that you can use the barbecue I think cuts have changed as well so I think you know that's just a stereotypical British barbecue you're burnt bangers you burnt burgers Yeah. I think in the middle so they wouldn't take everything tasting your paraffin I remember that those I think I think those days have changed

Owen - Host:

Yeah, definitely you know from when I was a kid and that's exactly where we went for out you know that's exactly what our barbecues were Yeah Yeah, exactly. It's almost like Dyson with every time you eat sausage but you know you have to cook sausage Yeah, that's it. How much lighter fluid to people need to use anyway.

Unknown:

I remember the very first even before shipping you know very first when I when I got my house first house with my wife and doing our first barbecues and pouring a whole bottle of life bottle like fluid over into flames about 10 foot high sort of messy visual. Yeah, yes. I think the trend has changed. I'm getting asked for now what a lot more whole cuts. So triceps is a great example. Go back to the whole chuck you know, we're not talking like one kilo taught two kilo joints whole Boston buts Thor's hammer again those kinds of things become a lot more popular and have done over the last maybe three to four let's say three to four years ago COVID In two years of that so maybe five or six years have become a lot more popular. Don't get me wrong we still got people coming in sausages burgers burgers, I think you know burger is an interesting one the burger industry as a whole whether that be restaurants or cook at home is just still I don't know how it's still escalating each week. I can't quite get to grips of how you know the market is saturated now with incredible burger joints and I don't even know where to go and eat burger now because you've got so many bloody good burger joints. Where do I go there's

Owen - Host:

just it just shows us Brits love burgers, right?

Unknown:

It does but look, I guess. Yeah, I've had to almost rein back you know, kind of divulging theories requesting sorry, but you know, I've got to rein back on on the burgers and again, I found I'm lucky enough that we've got a local burger place that has been around for a while but is just an independent, not trying. Well, he's a child. He's got two restaurants and he isn't the only one in London but he all he does is specialize in bloody brilliant beef, lettuce, tomato and just a very nice source in. You know, it's Don't be wrong. There's nothing wrong with these burgers that are stacked about 15 feet high and everything else but go back to my kind of point on grass fed or pasture fed and quality. Give me a burger. That's just a really good quality beef. Bit of salt and pepper. Great bun, fresh lettuce, fresh tomato. What more do you want? But yeah, that's again that's their opinion, you know? It's way it kind of goes back to that question on the barbecue you know, burgers are very very popular we over the summer period course we can go up to like 1000 Burgers a week. Which is good for us because it goes back to a secondary cut, you know, over the summer period. Yes, we will sell Thor's hammer and chuck that kind of thing. But you still got a lot of products that you won't sell any goes back to the brisket. The brisket is not good enough for low and slow. But it does make a bloody good burger. So yeah, into the bugs it goes so it swings and roundabouts wasted. No, that's a really good point. No waste. I hate waste. Waste is just, as you see going on social media, I'm down physically visiting these farms and going down and seeing the hard work that these guys women and women or men are putting into into their trades. And I think I work hard as a butcher, I don't work anything, anything like these farmers work their upper street o'clock in the morning and going to bed at three o'clock at night and that they don't stop. It's not all to get that meat on their table here. So it's my job in the butchery to make sure that we respect that and use up as much as physically possible. You know, we sell majority of the bones, because they make great stock, great sources, dog bones, whatever else as much as the trim as well. You know, even even the dry aged trim, you know, we'll go into like the African sausages, because that's the best part for those for the breweries. So it's just trying to be really calculated. And that goes but always goes back to what we're saying with Becky earlier about the hanging as well getting that Hank into the right state of hanging. Because you don't want to create that too much wastage, we want to create the product to be the best products it is. So it's just having that intuition isn't it and and that goes through every every one of the animals doesn't mean strictly to wear beef. But Bush is far more than beef and lamb will be exactly the same Yeah, we've got outlets for so many different products for lamb. Again, if it's Lamberg it's straightforward lamb and freshmen it's a bit of better though in that that kind of thing or go getters or that kind of that kind of area but it's just about not creating waste and this is where Barbie comes in. Perhaps the ideal Yeah, because it gives you an outlet for for so many things yeah whether it be in the summer period you've got X amount of drumsticks left you know for some reason they seem to have dropped out of fashion well you chuck a really good joke marinade on the bear flying out the door because of not to answer in the UK right now and it's brilliant to see the way the scene is is exploding. It's yeah, super excited and I'm

Owen - Host:

really glad to see that it's actually 365 is well that actually you're not just experiencing those peaks during the summer because most people that are into barbecue are literally every day come rain or shine

Unknown:

100% And I think for me it again it goes back to labor of love the butchery I've got a labor of love of barbecue and outdoor cooking. And again I'll try and cook outdoors as much as physically possible access much of his boss was difficult living a crazy lifestyle Amalia Hardy at home at school but you did the steak someone on the fire pit there's there's a file for you. So we did mistakes in the fire pit and I've got this really old rusty look five bit which I bought from I think it was the range. A few years ago it cost 30 quid they looked aesthetically nice. It's done the right but yeah, quick mistakes. The whole bottom fell out.

Owen - Host:

Wash your cooking.

Unknown:

So there's quite a few but it's outside all your login, of course is going to rush through but but yeah, again, like you say it's three to five, isn't it? I think I think the other interesting one we do all year long is it goes back to the economy. Again, I know my boss won't won't won't mind me saying it. But we're quite quite funny. Actually, he took we've got their mini max egg at work that we lend out to staff that they can basically read take it back with him and he's had it for a while now. And he's like, actually, it's been more economical to use the egg than it has to like be turning my oven on every day, instead of buying a bag of tacos last night for a week. And I think that's I think that's gonna be I don't know how big it's gonna be. But I think there's going to be a bit of a thing coming up where we know that gas prices are going up and up and up and electricity is going up and up and up. Actually for the barbecue community. It's brilliant. It's much more cost effective for us to cook outside through a free throw future tacos on Happy days. I think the economy is gonna impact isn't it?

Owen - Host:

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Owen - Host:

Visit aos kitchens.co.uk Always also think you know where, where perhaps people that are probably, you know, into barbecue, inverted commas. You know, if you're buying if you're buying a barbecue again, you don't have to spend 1000s of pounds on a barbecue but certainly one that's got good heat retention. So you you are using less charcoal is so much more economically viable, isn't it? But yes, you might have to pay a little bit more out the front, but I've got barbecues that have lost me over 10 years.

Unknown:

Yeah, but you're gonna you're gonna get it back at the back end of it. And again, I'm not going to be brand specific on it because if everybody who knows me, they know what I use, but I'm not I'm not I'm not stuck up to a brand. I was fortunate enough to go with egg purely because of the background of where I worked and doing bits for them so but you know, there's so many good commando style barbecues now out in the market. You know, some are horrendously expensive, admittedly. But there's a lot of affordable commanders out there. And I think like heat retention is the great is the answer, isn't it? No, it's finding one of those barbecues that's got a good heat retention on it. I've lost you forever. You look off look after it the right way. Don't go any paraffin on it. Let's be honest. That's it was like But you look after it and and they will last you I think they're mine. I think my large now is now probably 12 years 12 years old now. It's still going strong. There's nothing nothing wrong with it and you still light it up anyway my small I use three or four nights a week at the moment realistically. And again for what I'm cooking on it as well at the moment is I don't cook a lot of slow cooks right now because again timewise but it's ideal to frozen steaks on their back that kind of thing. Whole chicken on there doesn't take long does it and and efficiency of lighting it as well that it doesn't take long sliders is like 20 minutes door to door really to get it hot and ready to go temperature control. So yeah, spend the money from you don't need to go crazy, I would say will be my suggestion. You don't need to go to to the top end brands or brands within the name but look at just something that's got good heat retention. And it will Yeah, it will be a godsend.

Owen - Host:

Just on the just on the X specifically. Yeah, I don't have I don't have a neck. But did you? I think they had a sizzle Fest this year. They definitely did last year. But have you seen that that supersize when it was a buck a bucket that I fully

Unknown:

worked? Me topia? Again, I'd be lying to say how many years ago it was, as you get older you lose track of these things. But I work for green negative utopia and funnily enough, actually, it was before I was a force I'd only just become a butcher. I wasn't affiliated with pasture flight, but the USP for me, topia was grass fed V grain fed. And basically long sort of we had a bank of many maxes that each one of us had a station cooking the steaks going up sitting down with with a customer and it was a taste blind taste what tastes better anyway that that's that but we had the double XL egg next to us and my god, like I struggle to lift the lid on that thing

Owen - Host:

is so is so big.

Unknown:

I can't remember any beta shark I think it took like two two and a bit bags of chalk or something I can't remember but we it was ridiculous we had again if I remember rightly, we had a whole chuckling blade so this thing was about 25 kilos worth of meat on the on the double XL. I think one of the guys is working with egg for me, Nick at the time was saying you could get six suckling pigs on it there's no need for it. Like So you're looking at the garden, but I don't think I'd ever use it right. And again, you can substitute

Owen - Host:

a hot tub

Unknown:

on the sides of it as well. Customers asked me we meet our leg admittedly and customer asked me about the size and you have given customers coming in are double XL XL. And as you know, I stick to the medium extra large because actually, I think those sizes, not just in the equity in the whole range of commandos actually, they're more efficient. They like I think they like better and I think the temperature controls better on them as well. So, you know, I was fortunate enough. I've got my large about 12 years ago, and then I thought actually getting mini max to sit aside next to it. A if I'm doing a big family barbecue, then he gives me two different cooking temperatures. Or, again, like a weeknight. So like I said, you know, I've got three kids, my wife, we own a coffee shop and believe it or not, we're in a dance school. Yeah, my wife works pretty much eight in the morning to half 1011 At night, Monday, Saturday. So from finishing up the butchery to running home to going up to dance school to pick up the kids off the dance lessons to get back. Time is a nightmare. So actually, the mini max is brilliant. You can just chuck a light on it. Right girls, we're gonna chuck the steak on there, or this could be controversial. Go back to the old school. Well, we could chuck sausages on it. That kind of thing. So yeah, you know, it's size wise. But I think goes back to my point, if I'd had the Excel, I think there's a psychological element to me going actually, I don't think I'd want to come home every night and light it because you just got that visual element was so big. Even though we know it's economical. I just don't think I'd want to. If that kind of makes sense. Anyways, just

Owen - Host:

generally does fun. Funny enough. So I've got I've got a number of different barbecues, few different brands. And I've been, I was saying to someone asked me about my wish list, and all three of them. The top three were all big, all big barbecues. Yeah. But actually thinking about it again, um, you know, wife and two kids some nights, you know, the kids eat school dinners, or did they just want a sandwich when they get home or my wife doesn't want to eat what I eat. But I don't necessarily need to fire up my massive trailer I'm a five or I don't need to fire up my big Weber 57 It almost sometimes it would be nice just to have like a little tabletop grill or something, you know, just almost like, you know, like the little you have to Tory type. Yeah, Japanese grills that are just smaller than just perfect size for just one one steak on there or cup, two sausages or whatever, that you're not actually having to fire up a whole oven or a grill or, you know,

Unknown:

I think you're right. Other thing. I think this point I think, again, it goes back to the firepit for me, you know, that was kind of a multi multi use as well. It was like, again late last night for instance. I could chuck some logs on there. Again, not going crazy looking at economics. So you know, two or three logs because you know you got a nice ambient afterwards when it doesn't break. service but you've got reasons for lighting it as well. And it's not hugely not like you said you're not you're not lighting up this gigantic barbecue for a cup of steaks, because yeah, I think that again, it goes back to like you say economics as well. They don't yakitori style barbecues. They look amazing, and they're not crazy expensive. You know you can you can pick them up now for for pretty good price and the temperatures I use one

Owen - Host:

No, I haven't No, I've seen a few people starting to use them but I've heard good things

Unknown:

they they're nuts we got when it works must mean 2019 Just pre pre COVID Again, we had a yakitori menu on our outdoor dining because it's kind of handed habitually to outside. But the heat that these things produce is just is immense. It's not joking with the Akagera cook yakitori within seconds yeah, they're really good fun. I'd highly recommend them again for the price bracket that don't take a lot of charcoal Why do I know you can go you can go as crazy as you want and you can go to order this Japanese charcoal is I can't member the name of it by ocean it's

Owen - Host:

bitumen Yeah, yeah. Which I am sorry

Unknown:

that's one I've had the luxury of using a couple of times in the shipping industry which is stuff at the same is worth the money Wow. But yeah, it goes back to that you say it's it's economics isn't it? I'm I'm a barbecue advocate of cook to what you can afford as well yeah don't You don't need to you know I started out years ago BBQ when bugged you start becoming a passion before kind of going to eggs you know, I had a really cheap offset. Again, range model smoker that I will just sit outside loading logs on hoping for the best. It's got no no decent seal on it. Notice that the temperature range was where it was. So it was it was kind of like teaching yourself. If I put a thing of water here and I Use this amount of fire, I can actually bring it down to. And again, for me, I think that's that luxury is, is trying to also understand about the cooking skills. Even take just a standard kettle barbecue with lid, you know, the whole offsetting put your charcoal to one side, put a pan of water on the other side, you can create a conviction. By doing that and you can control you're not going to burn, you can bet and you can register. To a certain extent you can do veggie low and slow and say I know that's a really good area for me. I love that. I find it really, really fascinating. It was the guy or one of my favorite books I was introduced to in my in my last cheffing job. And again, I would imagine that community most people would know Francis Morman. The Argentinian barbecue Chef, what a legend, you know, I got his two books years ago, seven fires, and seven fires, the recipes. I think I've read seven fires, or 5060 times now, just back and forwards. And I absolutely love this idea of Book Seven fires the seven different ways of cooking over fire. And that kind of links into when someone sends me Oh, we've only got a drum BQ or we've only got, you know, a kettle BBQ well, you can do the same. You can cook the same way. Just understanding the different principles of how fire works. And how to get that fire to work in your favor. I couldn't recommend that book enough to be honest with you, because that really taught me even away from the shipping industry because there's stuff in there that in the shipping industry just wouldn't relate. And it was. It was brilliant. So yeah, it's kind of goes back to economics, you know, you can buy doesn't matter what you spend on a barbecue. As long as and again, I'm going to be I will put markers out on this one. I'm a big advocate of let's get rid of disposable barbecues, because I don't see any for them. Let's Let's lose them.

Owen - Host:

Yeah, I completely agree with that. Yeah. Yeah, especially. Yeah, definitely. And I think you know, with with so many barbecues now that are portable, good quality, you get the heat retention, you get all the you know, they're similar size to what it's a throwaway barbecue is what is the need?

Unknown:

There isn't for them. No, and it goes back to keep real agent arrange because to be honest with you in the summer alone, which about 365. But in the summer, the range of their range is really bloody good. You know, from chimneys to barbecues, you know, that aren't crazy expensive. Now they do a ceramic I think, is it the acorn, I think they do something like that. It's it's another great one anyway. But yeah, I quite a lot. And actually, that goes back to exactly where I started out. You know, I think the my offset barbecue cost me 90 pounds. And it lasted me for three, four years, probably. We looked after it, I bought cover for it, admittedly. And we looked after it cleaned out after every use and and it was it was great. It was a great learning tool. And it was just didn't want lunch. It was fun. All right, go coach. Before we get to go into the minute, you know, there was plenty of mistakes.

Owen - Host:

Let's talk about unknown that. Obviously, it's one of the things as I said, we hold very, very dear on the podcast is the barbecue fails. You mentioned one earlier about essentially the bottom of your fire pit falling through. But I suppose again, we're there an extensive cheffing career as well. I'm sure there's probably a few even fails from there. So tell us all about um, Simon.

Unknown:

Let's go with my biggest one. This is not barbecue, unfortunately. But we'll go with my biggest fail. And this goes back 20 Monday, probably nearly 30 years now. So it's quite an older quite old story. So starting out in in a very, very well known restaurant in Kenya. We were doing I know it's controversial but bear in mind if it's a high end restaurant at the mouth, then we were doing Chicken Fried Chicken different photograph, I think we all know the cost of Viagra is just ridiculous. So again, am I giving the whole recipe but it was basically you know, it's a holdover for grass and chicken livers. Lots and lots of pork, that kind of that kind of thing blended up, put into a drain and then into a bed into a battery set up in in the oven. And you bake it very very slowly in the battery into it set and then it comes out you batter it and it looks really nice and it's very tasty but so biggest fail. So I think I come in with six of these in in the oven. I put it in the oven, it must be at about 230 in the afternoon. So just as lunch the lunch services come up to a wraps. Anyway, being young, eager to get out on a break. wraps up rhapsodize up, ran out any lives. I didn't live that far away from the restaurant side run home, completely forgot that I put these things in the oven. Got back into the kitchen, I spent about five 530 to set up for evening service and these things were nakid scrambled for run through the money thrown in the bin. And I won't tell you what my head chef said, because I don't think we can we do that on on it, but I wasn't in the best. It wasn't in the best books this way. So we're up to six paragraph cafes.

Owen - Host:

That's a lot of money.

Unknown:

That was, yeah, I was in the bad books about one way. So I think that's probably what biggest biggest fail. I think other than that, in general. There's lots of I think this fails every day. I think social media has. I'm the worst. Right? You know, you only post on social media. What looks good. Yeah. But most of the time, yeah. You don't necessarily post on social media, the bits on the side of burn out to control that but you know, I had one file actually, I did put on social media and I realized that actually taking a photo of it and so I put it up, but I did a KFC style chicken. Super excited like gone to town right. So I found the recipe for what the closest recipe I could find to that like KFC crumb. I've made my own bands to go with it the lettuce you name it, I've gone the whole way it may be okay if some gravy, super proud of this and even got KFC pay for design style and start wrapping these things. And I've done chips to the side of it. It wasn't until I don't know I don't know what happened. But I put it up for social media. I was super excited this way you're gonna go to town. And then comments started coming through. It's like them chips burn no black. Okay, and I literally like put these photos of black chips. I just got it forgotten about. They got black to black to anything.

Owen - Host:

You just used a very, very dense pepper rub. Right?

Unknown:

Well of course. Yeah, absolutely. So there's one again, that was probably more barbecue. So non barbecue related again. Fresher cooking fail. Tried to press cook oxtail. I think it was fairly new into into that kind of scene of cooking. Anyway, cut it out. And it was like there's oxtail soup and there's oxtail puree. And that yeah, this thing was just like an absolutely puree. To be honest, yeah, there's the classic ones are burning the bottom of something, and not necessarily showing that on social media. So yeah, that's true. So my photos if you look closely, you will see the bottom you look at it and it's like this black layer. So I'm not gonna lie, we all fail and I fail all the time. But I think the skill set is is not about necessarily the failings is how do you recover from the failure you know, as long as it's not a catastrophic, like I've left it in the oven overnight and or I left it in my barbecue overnight, the BB has gone up to 300 degrees C and it's black and there's nothing to do with it. But I think there's you can always get away with something. Yeah. Paul Paul Stamets classic one isn't the barbecue went out or is still wet the temperature up and roast it

Owen - Host:

yeah especially think at home as well isn't it when it's just you and your family? Yeah, I'd like to you'd like to think that pretty forgiving you know, we'll get get around it slap a bit of salt.

Unknown:

I'm lucky with my family my family is forgiving. It's me that beach myself and my family. And you're like oh my god I know I wouldn't say a temper because I'm gonna be a temper but I've got kind of get angry at yourself. And then it's got to work for us now what we're gonna do for dinner now where I'm gonna go and listen is like oh God, here we go. Yeah, I think it's more that kind of personal data especially being in the trade for so many years as well. When you do fail, you know better than this. But like you say, it's not so bad and family in the restaurant scene. That's different story. That's yeah, I can imagine you don't have time to fail. Like that. If that makes sense. Again, you know you some of the business restaurants I worked in you're doing like two uncovers a night. You didn't have time for you? Yeah, I remember services where I've given a lie I've cried and cried in the kitchen as a grown man Yeah. When that pressure is that immense and you've got ticket coming on a ticket ticket ticket and and you're in you're just not seeing or you will suddenly realize you're not prepped up for it, you haven't got enough and it can be the smallest thing in the world. So you know, kind of Intralinks the fail. I have dice enough slots to go in the slot dressing for the oysters is a great one and you don't physically have the time during service to the right stop realized. It's yes or burning that steak you know overcook that steak in that state comes back to you that produce because you're you're at that kind of panic state as a chef that you've just sent out anyway because I'm going if I can't I can't I know my chefs gonna kill me so I'm just gonna send it out and come back those Yeah, that heart learnings that was the Yeah.

Owen - Host:

I want to completely turn it around from from the from the fails and the stress of it. What do you what do you absolute He loves to cook on the barbecue. What was your favorite thing?

Unknown:

Oh, well. I think there's two favorite things. three favorite things I like to cook, obviously, steak that there has to be out there, of course, you know, in the grocery industry lucky enough to have some bloody amazing steaks on a weekly basis. So I think that's my favorite thing to cook. In terms of just enjoy it, I enjoy. I enjoy the aspects of the intuition. Knowing when it's done watching it, understanding it, listening to see you all today little techniques that kind of go into making that steak. absolutely spot on. So steaks copyable number one, and that's be honest with you, that will be the dish that will be my last. That will be my last dish 100 steak and chips. No frills, no spills. Just steak and chips. Sounds good. And then it sounds really crazy, actually. I just I think it's more of a sentimental one. So when when my wife and I, we got together, we got married. We going back, you know we've married, what, 20 years this year. So our honeymoon was in Costa del Sol. Great Hi, Tammy. I wasn't, I wasn't a chef then. I didn't really I've never been to a hot country either. So I didn't really know anything about food. I enjoy it. I knew I enjoy eating food. And my wife and I we were against those you know courses. So you go to the most amazing beach and coming away from that kind of party pub scene. If you go down to the beach, a first thing in the morning when the boats coming in with his fresh sardines that have been cooked over charcoal. Then you go to the restaurants that evening and they're cooking paella. Over over over fire. And I think I came back he had to kind of give me a story. We were eating pile I think there must have ate it two or three times on our honeymoon, that it was just kind of like wow, this is just I've never experienced I've never eaten anything like this. And then I remember coming back and so can I give you the whole picture going into Sainsbury's going, I want to try and cook paella at home. And I wasn't a chef. Like I said, I don't have a clue. I've never cooked with my mum and my dad's doing bits and pieces, you know making shepherd's pies and stuff. But I remember the I remember Nick boys myself pick up this pile of rice and have a recipe on the back on how to make video. So again, this isn't barbecued to start, but we've had in cheek frying pan, etc. Your first flat Yeah. And I remember making this player when it was tasty. Don't be wrong. It was It wasn't the file. It wasn't there was nothing like we did in Spain. But it was tasty. And it was a great meal. And it then sort of slowly became an addiction and it became a Wi Fi set meal. And it was like least once a week we would have paella. And at that point it was always kind of the UK or to call it UK set recipe kind of areas. So it always had to reach so in it because that's what it's love. It will always have squid, it always have chicken. And so it was very much that kind of bastardize recipe. It was brilliant. And we had it every week. And I'm gonna carry on politics. And then I won't give my whole career path but I I was working at my local ski center because that's my trade came out and I got a job in the Beefeaters as a chef. And it was brilliant. And we had played we had played on the menu there in Beefeaters and he can imagine that you came out with a packet that we grilled the chicken and the chicken got this like this Crossmark grill and it went on the top and wow this thing was amazing proper little cast iron pile of hands who's to go out so this pile of passion kind of just expanded expanded. So let's skip to probably about five or six years ago so then I really got into the butchery trade gone through the whole of my shipping trade started to really kind of is passionate about exploring cultures foods how things were traditionally done, why you do things like you do and and then we started you know I bought myself a traditional player pan from you know from where I'm working now actually ironically with you know the proper thing based on it and then again on the on my Oh my My holy would put loads of logs on there make the fire and then start cooking your paella over fire and then start looking at traditional methods as well so why am I putting so in action let's look at rabbit let's look at other other options and I remember buying the book we have quite a bit by fader and reading through that game you know this is that this is intense like they they put a cloth over it at the end and actually what they're looking for is that their crust on the bottom and and it's just is now become like this every and I've got to be sort of backtrack when we said about 365 Again, but it's more of a summit is more of a summer thing for us now that it's become like this family summer ritual that will have all these ingredients and bowls laid out the fire pit will be lit and then we'll go out and the pen will go on and oil and the battle will go in the pen and then we'll start building this is paella and the kids actually love it because this thing will go under the table and you've got this like smoky element to it. And so yeah, as you're

Owen - Host:

hungry, it's like it's an it's an interactive cook that it becomes an interactive Cup for the family then doesn't

Unknown:

it's not only an interactive Cook is an interactive dining as well, isn't it? Right? You can't come away from this stereotypical, we must sit around a table and have your food dished up to you on a plate. Now, do you know what there's the Pieta? In the middle table? There's a spoon. Yeah. itself. And it becomes this whole journey that this whole this whole amazing journey of from from me now is not just about the cooking department going out and sourcing the ingredients. So yes, let's go to these farm shops or this fish mungry. And we'll go and sourcing ingredients. They will come back then will the ritual lighting the pit, getting the pets in the right temperature understanding going back to that several fires and understanding what stages that pit ready to go. Am I going to put it through when the flames are about 10 foot high? Still? Probably not. But am I going to put it through when it's dead? It's just getting that balance in, you know, we all know that fire that takes, what 2530 minutes, if not a little bit more to cook. And it's making sure that you get that pan on that right point that the logs at the right temperature, but they're dying towards the end part of that cook. It just becomes this really intense kind of funky, I think is so I think it's probably it's probably pretty reversed. It probably is my favorite

Owen - Host:

way that you've just explained that there's got to be number one. And I'd like you to keep that in mind which the next thing I want to I want to go on to his barbecue bingo. And there's a reason I'm asking you these questions first. So this is quite a good segue, actually. Because, as I kind of mentioned to you, before we started recording, we do this barbecue bingo challenge. So I've just pulled up this.

Unknown:

So awesome, great.

Owen - Host:

There's no There's no bingo involved. It's a really high tech way. One of the things on there is my signature dish, which is your signature dish what you're famous for. So the way that you've just explained it actually pilots already on there. So maybe the steak and chips should be your signature dish. But what we've what we've done is we've added new to this so all the guests that we've been recording a season for which you're part of season four, we're asking them to leave leaving a an ingredient. So live has gone on there, Sue Mac, maple and pecan ice cream, chocolate buttons. So once we've spun this to see what you get, I'd love for you to add an ingredient or or a dish to go on to there. So is there anything that sticks out for you that you're big? No, no, or yes, I'd love to have a go at

Unknown:

that. I'll be keen on any of that to be honest with you. There's obviously some favorites on there. But I think just spin it and let's just see what comes up. Fantastic. Fantastic, excellent.

Owen - Host:

Ah, so this is the first ingredient that was put on by Chris at Big Nose barbecue, one of the organizers of sizzle fest. So fantastic. So he'll be pleased that that you've got that tip to give give that a go. So what do you think you're going to try and use sumac with

Unknown:

what seemed like so we're talking sort of Middle Eastern that this kind of areas so the obvious shouting out to me will be fissured white meat so chicken or pork something like that chicken predominantly fishes and other good one but sumac thinking flatbreads, thinking pomegranates at the moment. Or the Gundam or like what's the what's the rice with like kind of nuts and raisins? P ly? Is that kind of the appeal of that? That kind of area? That's good. Maybe like chicken that seems spatchcocked or even completely boned? Yeah. Yeah with the sumac protons flatbreads covered with like your pomegranate and jewels. Keeping it yeah keeping you down that route. You'll get a nice sort of yogurt yogurt dressing with a bit of sumac go into the yogurt dressing

Owen - Host:

right what would you like us to add to this for our next guest

Unknown:

I'll surely go it's gonna sound quite strange. I'm gonna go to test one pepper. Really interesting green and is let's be honest, it is pretty now ready available. Most supermarkets now will sock it within this bisection is it's not a completely random product but for me just to kind of highlight it so when someone does shoes, it's it's one of those products I've really gone into over the last Three or four weeks really massively going into my Chinese into my Chinese style cooking. It'd be interesting to see what people come up with it as well. So

Owen - Host:

and you've also created a new file for the podcast, which is a wins spelling fails.

Unknown:

This is why this is, this is why I'm a chef and a butcher. I'm Heidi, I'm highly dyslexic and anything academic was never going to work. So

Owen - Host:

I appreciate that. So Well, we obviously look forward to what you can cook there. I can't I'd like to ask one. What kind of one final question which absolutely could could could probably be a hard question to answer. But I'm gonna give it a go. So kind of goes right back to the beginning. And actually, when you were talking about Thor's hammer, and how six months ago that hasn't, it wasn't a thing, you could not sell them. And now you're you're selling four or five a week. What do you think as we come out of perhaps Christmas, which is going to be more traditional, but moving into 2023? What do you think is going to be the next big barbecue cut or barbecue trend from from a meat perspective?

Unknown:

That is really, really difficult. I think a lot of the trends, everything sort of going in circles the moment I think in the current economical state, knowing we're going to come out of Christmas, where people are going to spend a lot of money still over Christmas, because we're gonna want to celebrate. So January, February, March is going to be a much, much tighter three months than potentially any other year that we've had. So think is stained, and that theme is secondary. I think secondary cuts are going to be huge. Poor secondary states, I don't know. I'd like to go back to what we're saying with a Chuck, I think, Chuck, they're gonna have a massive revival. I really I think that's going to be I unfortunately, I think things like lamb are potentially going to drop off the radar a little bit because you know, lamb is a tourist really expensive, what it deemed expensive. I think poultry is going to struggle a little bit. I think, you know, price of poultry is going up and up and up. And you look at looking at supermarkets now. You know, we're we're expensive anyway, where I am for the for the quality that we're using, but I think poultry is so I think it's gonna Yeah. Secondary cuts, bigger cuts, maybe maybe we might have a bit of a revival. I don't know, I don't know the trend, the trends are changing very, very rapidly. On a daily basis, right now, people shopping habits are changing on a daily basis right now. If I'm going to relate this directly to to barbecue, then I think trend will continue with bigger cuts. more cost effective, bigger cuts. So rather than again, kilo joints, I think people will probably buy larger, slower cooking joints that will do two or three meals rather than just your kind of your one barbecue night. I think I think and I'm hoping as well that that trend will really kind of hit off that people will list news check again. Example. We'll do that low and slow Chuck. But then really now start thinking of leftovers. You know, what can we do with those leftovers? Can we make a regular? Can it go into a cheap con carne? Can you go into a curry, and I think I'm hoping as well. That's where the trend will go. I do think this is very, very arrogantly say I do think the trends can be led by a lot more social media. The power of social media right now not necessary myself. But you know, look at some of the replays, you know, I think Thor's Hammer was set, you know, set on social media trend. And I think that's really where we're, where the trends the trades can be dictated to, but I like to say, I'm hoping it goes to, well, let's be honest, I will stick our stick on my high horse and hopefully it goes to concentrating on British meat, not necessary. don't withdraw any beef for British meat, zero importation, supporting our local farmers or supporting our farmers in general. And understanding that less wastage. I think that's really, really where I'm hoping the trend today seeing people of understanding that actually buy a whole chicken and how many meals can that whole chicken do making sure we're using the bones etc. Taking our life back and full circle, if that makes sense, you know, to what our parents used to do is not a negative in any shape or means you know, I think if I can put a positive spin on his economic area, I'm hoping that's gonna be a positive spin that we all actually start to rethink about the way we cook eat what we're eating less takeaways more home cooking will be absolutely ideal. So that's kind of kind of a segue of my high morals on that one but as he's standing

Owen - Host:

by absolute I absolutely agree with you to you know, in that for me, I'm reevaluate every time I go to the butchers now, again, I'm looking at what can i What can I buy that's going to get the best value for money. You know, I've always I've been buying from the butchers as long as I could couldn't remember the you know me personally. But I yeah, I also lean and now to need to look at the Best way to maximize every single piece of meat that you cook, and everything, everything you buy. So I think that's actually right to do.

Unknown:

So, you know, again, the example for me as well. It's about it's about that bulk cooking as well. Give me an example I've got I've got my mom dad come in have dinner tomorrow night. Admittedly, you will, we'll, we'll do it, we'll do it, we'll be on the egg, actually. But we'll do gonna do cook event, which can be quite an expensive dish. You know, by the time you've got sort of Pan Shettar through there, your chicken through there. But actually to make it more economical, enough to cover three meals for the week. So I don't have to buy another three meals or another two meals, you know, got tomorrow night's meal. And then that covers me then, for two nights, when I know, I'm running around like crazy. And again, that interrelates to me for another kind of segue, my morals set of eating healthy. I don't want to be pushed into that corner where I'm having to go to a supermarket to buy a ready meal. That's full of not great stuff.

Owen - Host:

That was very diplomatic.

Unknown:

I was just trying to think I've been working on I'm going to go to the White House. But you didn't you know, I mean, it's, I kind of wants to know what I'm eating. And I want to know, when I was healthy, I think it's probably exaggerated. So well that's healthy, but I want to know the ingredients that are in it. Yes, I'll make I'll make some Chinese food that will put a bit of MSG and stuff in it, trust me because it flavors some but I think I just want to know what ingredients aren't cooking with and what's going in. And if I can eat fresh every night, then that's the way of doing it. So goes back to that bulk cook by almost spend out that money initial place with good ingredients, but the bulk of those ingredients that are going to last them through two or three meals rather than that kind of one meal for one night. So this is why I believe I do believe it can work you know, I again, I was sitting I live well as your typical I live one of the most craziest lifestyles of busyness. So I do my wife does, and I pick up the slack. Pick up slack from there. But when people say to me, I haven't got time, you know, we've all got the time. You know, it's it's about being clever. Saving the menus, like you say, going into your britches and buying a big economical cup. Pulled Pork was a pork butt, shoulder report, Boston, Boston mazing economical and you can get help requests with only meals out of it doesn't have to be just a smoke for pool because it you know, you can pull pork and that pork can go into a Ragu, you can go into a pork and cider casserole, it can go into so many different variations. But you can chuck it on your ceramic barbecue, leave it for however long you want. You can let's be honest, you can chuck it in your slow cooker, if you've got options. So we've all got a time when it's just kind of making that time and making just being clever with it, I think is just again, that's just where I sit with it.

Owen - Host:

So, two final things before we go, is there any is there anything that we haven't spoken about yet that you wanted to talk to an old or tell our readers before? Before we finish?

Unknown:

I think I think we've covered I think we've covered quite a lot of things and sort of, you know, in some in some in depth and some of the roundabout way, way conversations always go. Again, for me, it's just the passion really, is what people don't understand, you know, what are we doing what we're doing and, and for our readers really to have the confidence of coming into US interest butchers. And don't be afraid to ask, I think is the biggest thing for me. It's just because we've got a counter in front of us. We're not scary, you know, we're we're nine times out of 10 We're all exceptionally friendly and bloody keen and passionate about what we do. And we're going to we actually want to share our knowledge. So the thing for me is always ask if he was to come and see me in fabrication, then almost, you know, come to my fridge. I've got the window. I love it when a customer comes in and says you know what, can we you know, we're looking for something we need inspiration. All right, come into my fridge, literally, there's no bodies of beef everything hanging up. Like there's nothing to hide. And

Owen - Host:

it sounds like my idea. I haven't. That's it

Unknown:

and that's you know, so that would be one thing for me is let's just really kind of highlight this trade. You know the butchery trade and just get people to be confident. Also confident understanding that if you come to us as a butcher, it's not just my budget for any butchers that I know of. You don't have to have a whole pack of something. You know you go and supermarket and you dictated to you you have to have a kilo of meat so 500 grams of mince. You have to have a pack six sausages Great. Well goes back to economics. You don't want that coming to the butchers. And I've got customers will come in every week without fail but have like 250 grams of mince. That's, you know, there's bread and butter to me as a retailer. But it's brilliant because they know they can come in you can come and have one sausage. You don't have to come in and that's I think that's the beauty of our trade. That's the beauty of what we do is that flexibility, you know, we can meet your we may we look expensive. You look at accounts, you look at the window, you look at the per kilo prices and you go, whoa. But it's that realisation of a customer that, you know, just because I've got a whole ribeye in the counter doesn't have to have the whole ribeye, you can have a five ounce steak effect ribeye. And it's not an extra. Yeah. So yeah, I think I think people will get the gist of where I'm kind of coming from that that have confidence. Come and speak to us. Ask us questions. We're more than willing to help you out. So I think that's pretty that's pretty all ready for me to get across.

Owen - Host:

Great. So you've got that across. Now where can people find you? So you've mentioned social media a few times but actually give give give where where people can find you on? Yes, absolutely. So

Unknown:

my butchery I work for a company called makan aid is a farm shop that's based in fishermen camp so we're just off of the A to just outside of Faversham, probably 15 minute drive from Canterbury 20 minute drive from Ashford if you're coming London direction, traffic spending 4545 minutes to the top end of an hour, I would have said probably less than an hour that's coming from sort of southeast London direction for about an hour from Dover. So we're a big food. We're a food hall. We've got cafe, we've got an amazing deli block except for the range of cheese on there. I couldn't even tell you how many is on there but it's just insane charcuterie section where we've got some of the best charcuterie in the world amongst some of the best British charcuterie. We've got them veg which is local veg where we can and then we have an amazing important section as well with the veg. Our owner is Italian as an Italian owner. So we do get a lot of really high end Italian produce come through right down to the pasture range as well. You've got pastures that you just won't find anywhere else here from small, small family producers up in the mountains in Italy. It's well worth a visit. It's YES I run the butchery there. That foods my passion and the shop is insane. You can spend if you're going to come down just make sure you take the whole morning because it's not it's not just it's not just a half hour shipping. It's it's a good morning out say yeah, we're back made find foods are made in fishermen can.

Owen - Host:

Fantastic. Well, Simon it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. And I look forward to catching up with you again, perhaps another barbecue.

Unknown:

We'll get this recipe done with the with the sumac here and we'll pick that up. So brilliant. Well, thank

Owen - Host:

you very much for coming on Simon.

Unknown:

It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Well, we'll catch up again.

Owen - Host:

Speeches soon. Cheers. Bye bye. That's it for another episode of the meat & Greet BBQ podcast. Thanks so much to Simon coming on and talking about all things butchery, as well as cooking in general. He's clearly got a passion for food. So if you're down in the Kent area, please do go out and check out his farm shop and butchery. As ever we want to hear from you. We want to know what you'd like us to talk about on the podcast. please do get in touch with us through our social media channels or through our website at meat & Greet BBQ podcast. On the website we've got our own store with the barbecue merch podcast merch as well as we've got some affiliates where we're working with some fantastic brands such as thermal pen where you know it's all about cooking to temperature and not time to make sure you get the best quality meat cooked at the right temperature. Until next time, keep on grilling

Dan - Host:

today's episode as a meat & Greet BBQ podcast is brought to you by iOS outdoor kitchens. They are the sales leading outdoor kitchen design and installation specialists